Egyptian Mirage V Horus released after stiff opposition from India.

[War Historian]

D

Would not J-10 be better in that role since its 10× more advanced then the mirage. Also the J-10 has a new airframe/aerodynamics just like the rafales and eurofighters.

sir , you are right , but we can not replace 120+ mirages in a row. J-10 and Thunder birds will replace Mirages but this will take a decade or more. Because last year we raise a new squadron not a replacement for old jets. So to grow the numbers we need the old horse working efficiently, untill we have enough jets to replace these legacy fighters. Thank you.

 

[Araz]

I have a theory but it could be wrong. The theory is that PAF went beyond the ROSE upgrades and localized an upgrade for its Mirages. Although SIPRI database doesn't show this, I believe there are (ROSE or not):

50 BVR capable Mirages
50 Strike capable Mirages

Approximately one squadron each for Northern, Central and Southern commands. Now, China has developed a pylon that can be integrated with Western aircraft and automatically integrates Chinese weapons. Meaning, such a pylon on the Mirage aircraft will allow their radars to cue SD-10s.

If you add 20 more Horus to this equation, you have 70 BVR platforms capable of firing SD-10s. Add to this 76 F-16s and 124 JF-17s - that's a lot of BVR platforms.

I believe the F-7PGs can also integrate the SD-10s in a similar way. Although the aircraft would probably not be able to use the max range of the SD-10, it matters little operationaly, as in the low level ambush mode PGs will be flying, it is good enough.

The point is that any BVR launched in real world conditions, and at low level barely remains a BVR at all. Effective range becomes close to 30-40 kms anyways.

Interesting idea to increase numbers. You have taken your hunch from the news creeping out of possible upgrade of M3/5s. The question remains that if it be so what radar are they using. The other issue is lack of hardpoints on M3/5s, I dont think they woll be able to carry more than 4 missiles at a time but that should be enough. The real questionis the radars. Also how do the Horus M5s fit in to this equation. Why does PAF want these planes. Heck no oneis even clear that they are Horus Mirages of just their Mirages in storage.
A

 

[Armchair]

Interesting idea to increase numbers. You have taken your hunch from the news creeping out of possible upgrade of M3/5s. The question remains that if it be so what radar are they using. The other issue is lack of hardpoints on M3/5s, I dont think they woll be able to carry more than 4 missiles at a time but that should be enough. The real questionis the radars. Also how do the Horus M5s fit in to this equation. Why does PAF want these planes. Heck no oneis even clear that they are Horus Mirages of just their Mirages in storage.
A

My hunch is actually from reading Oscar's posts a couple of years ago, where he basically stated that Mirages were indigeneously upgraded (more or less). What type (a2a or strike), what exactly was done or not he did not say.

 

[space cadet]

there has to be better options than mirage V, please tell me there are better options

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

D
sir , you are right , but we can not replace 120+ mirages in a row. J-10 and Thunder birds will replace Mirages but this will take a decade or more. Because last year we raise a new squadron not a replacement for old jets. So to grow the numbers we need the old horse working efficiently, untill we have enough jets to replace these legacy fighters. Thank you.

Yes, i was made aware that out main goal is to increase the numbers first

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Sir i think Mirages will be used before Thunder in a possible war. And F-16 & J-10 will lead the air superiority attack over the indian skies.and when most of the skies will be cleared by the falcons and J-10 then the ground attack will be launched by the Mirages and covered by the Thunders. But this will be happen after the flankers fleet collapse. And J-15 growlers might be used in early stages to jam and destruction of the S-300&S-400 system.
That might be a possible scenarios. And one thing more sir, in a war we have trained pilots but short of the jets so we must collect as many jets as we can.when the war will start, we might see a great loss in day one, because both air forces will attempt to dominate the skies of sub continent.
So the day one or might be some early hours will be horrible for both air forces. PAF must keep the older retired jets in order. Because the old jets can be used as decoys against the s-400 , to save the newer jets to attack on IAF.
May Allah bless our Armed forces. Amen

Indeed but I highly doubt that F-16s will leave the proximity of Pak airspace.

 

[Scorpio]

Mirages do not have the capability to go on stand alone missions, they will always be "part of a pkg", unless they are doing maritime patrol.

Thanks for corrections, sir i thought that mirage 3 and 5 combo together can go stand alone missing with guided bombs. Like thay used on 27 feb

 

[Araz]

My hunch is actually from reading Oscar's posts a couple of years ago, where he basically stated that Mirages were indigeneously upgraded (more or less). What type (a2a or strike), what exactly was done or not he did not say.

Thw upgrade may not have been as comprehensive as being planned now. There was talk of A darter induction and another BVR Missile manufactured locally and onducted on the M3s. It always remained table chat and was not confirmed and once PAF got the C5s the whole idea was shelved. Now they MAY BE looking at starting local BVR missile production so will need a decent test platform. However the key question is that of the radar which has not been answered. Frankly although the idea is intriguing the outcome maynot be so. When you have old airframes loading them with BVRs especially now that you have at least 2BVR capable platforms seems like asking for trouble.
Airframe fatigue will cause more accidents than kills from these senior citizens.
My famous statement is"ask me to run 200 meters and I will first call a taxi". The M3/5s are not far behind. The reason for ground strike is their shape which is suitable for straight line flight, platform height allowing integration of relatively robust and larger payload,speed and lastly cost(pittance for a high attrition rate job). It would be akin to me hurtling down a steep hill. My mass would destroy a lot along the way!
A

 

[Armchair]

Thw upgrade may not have been as comprehensive as being planned now. There was talk of A darter induction and another BVR Missile manufactured locally and onducted on theM3s. It always remained table chat and was not confirmed and once PAF got theC5s the whole idea was shelved. Now they MAY BE looking at starting local BVR missile production so will need a decent platform. However the key question os that of the radar which has not been answered. Frankly although the idea is intriguing the outcome maynot be so. When you have old airframes loading them with BVRs especially now that you have at least 2BVR capable platforms seems like asking for trouble.
Airframe fatigue will cause more accidents than kills from these senior citizens.
My famous statement is"ask me to run 200 meters and I will first call a taxi". The M3/5s are not far behind. The reason for ground strike is their shape which is suitable for straight line flight, platform height allowing integration of relatively robust and larger payload,speed and lastly cost(pittance for a high attrition rate job).
A

Wise words. The fact that they are being upgraded and planned for soldiering on till 2030 suggests the will have some teeth. A new pylon is relatively straight forward, and the weight of an SD-10 is lower than a dumb bomb. There is no purpose in keeping ROSE I Mirages or other radar equiped Mirages if they are to be cannon fodder.

This suggests to me that they are going to fire something more than the R-Darters or Aspide derivative that were the only BVRs available to PAF during the crucial years before the AMRAAM and JF-17 came in.

If we revisit that era, from a basic requirement point of view, it makes sense that PAF must have had three squadrons of A2A Mirages. One for each command. That would have been the most logical step and surely PAF must have had those. 3 Squadrons mean 54 aircraft.

 

[Gripen9]

MICA IS A BVR MISSILE AND SO WHAT IS ITS ACTUAL KILLIG RANGE.

MICA comes in both IIR & Active radar guidance mode. I believe range is around 80km. The missile is highly maneuverable with thruster rocket in the airframe body to make 40g turns. The missile can be fired in "Lock on after Launch" mode. Other feature is the missile seeker has IRST capabilities. So the missile can be used as an IRST for older planes without FLIR.

 

[Old boy]

MICA comes in both IIR & Active radar guidance mode. I believe range is around 80km. The missile is highly maneuverable with thruster rocket in the airframe body to make 40g turns. The missile can be fired in "Lock on after Launch" mode. Other feature is the missile seeker has IRST capabilities. So the missile can be used as an IRST for older planes without FLIR.

Thank u sir

 

[War Historian]

Indeed but I highly doubt that F-16s will leave the proximity of Pak airspace.

Sir, in all out war against the india. PAF must use every jet to hurt IAF. Because on that time the only question will be in our mind, " our survival" so if American don't like PAF using these jets in indian skies, then they have only option the kill switch to stop the jet from performing its duty. If they do this, they will also hurt their own jets reputation. PAF is one of leading air force who never loose its Falcon against the enemy.even they were Soveit or Indian.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Sir, in all out war against the india. PAF must use every jet to hurt IAF. Because on that time the only question will be in our mind, " our survival" so if American don't like PAF using these jets in indian skies, then they have only option the kill switch to stop the jet from performing its duty. If they do this, they will also hurt their own jets reputation. PAF is one of leading air force who never loose its Falcon against the enemy.even they were Soveit or Indian.

It will hurt their industries reputation but people will still line up to buy their equipment.

So I don't think PAF is going to risk it. Hence why a new platform which fulfills the same roll as the F-16 but has no strings attached, is needed.

Shouldve been a wakeup call for F sola fans and PAF when the Americans were checking how many F-16s we had after the battle. I'm sure they were doing more then just counting them.

 

[Araz]

It will hurt their industries reputation but people will still line up to buy their equipment.

So I don't think PAF is going to risk it. Hence why a new platform which fulfills the same roll as the F-16 but has no strings attached, is needed.

Shouldve been a wakeup call for F sola fans and PAF when the Americans were checking how many F-16s we had after the battle. I'm sure they were doing more then just counting them.

While the restrictions MAYBE there in peace times in war scenario it will be no holds barred " khulla kha tey nanga nhaa"affair with best utilization of all available assets to their maximum. F16 downing Russian planes will be the biggest advertisement for the US aviation industry and if we can bag a couple of Rafales the US will be jumping for joy. To the US aviation industry the loss of a couple million dhotis or Shalwars does not matter but when aviation repute is on the line everything goes.
As per international law both France and US WILL BAN exports of arms to both countries and earn more money selling them from the black market. As they say all is fair in love and war. So even if the US shouts hoarse and warns Pakistan it will not matter one little bit. What needs to be done will be done. Embargoes will not work as the war may well be shortlived.
A

 

[ali razza]

No.

desert falcons