I'll have to agree to disagree with you on the "boondoggle" issue. Perhaps the Constellation Class for the USN will turn out to be a "boondoggle" as well? Only time will tell. On that note, let's call it a day. cheers!
Lockheed Martin (LM) CSC Type 26 Frigate Design
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well, at least in the US we can call it like we see it. Canada hasn't quite caught up, still waiting for messages from sailing ship abroadI'll have to agree to disagree with you on the "boondoggle" issue. Perhaps the Constellation Class for the USN will turn out to be a "boondoggle" as well? Only time will tell. On that note, let's call it a day. cheers!
Yes mtime7, you are absolutely right.... as you always are. However in Canada we are trying to replace a whole Navy by building both a destroyer and frigate all wrapped up in one class of ship to replace what we had before. This type of design has never been accomplished before anywhere in the world and it will take time. The US has both the time and $$ to build the Constellation Class "Frigate" to go along with all your Destroyers, Cruisers, Aircraft Carriers, LHAs, AORs and Nuclear Subs etc. Canada cannot afford to do that. Look, the Constellation class will probably be a great Frigate for the USN (although I still think the US should have chosen the BAE Type 26) and you will probably sell dozens of them throughout the world (just like the OHP). Trying to make a Frigate act like a Destroyer as well as substantially equip it with ASW, ASuW and AAW capabilities all at the same time is not easy. Were there things and decisions that went wrong for the government on the CSC Frigate program? You bet!! But now we are trying to resolve these issues and come out the other end with a world-class Frigate. But every Navy has had those skeletons to tackle. Think Zumwalt class, LCS program among others. Let's just take some time to breath and relax!
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yea, if you want a destroyer you buy a destroyer, if you want a frigate you buy a frigate, I have already seen what LM can do, I am speaking from experience, and 6 billion can buy you any destroyer you want. You know what, when I have a minute I will go back and look at all the stories you have posted and take some clips and post them.
Problem is Canada doesn't want a destroyer like the Arliegh Burke Class. We could not put that many sailors on them anyway. What we are buying is a Frigate with some destroyer like qualities. What I put on this Forum is public for everyone to see and discuss but not to abuse. What is on here is my own personal beliefs. If you take issue with what I post, that's fine by me, but don't abuse this forum and its members. You do so at your own risk.
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Folks.. let's keep it cool shall we?
Thanks for that Lieutenant. I for one will always comply, but the "Iranian Lovers" comment I feel is way out of line. Cheers!
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well, when the Iranians shoot down an airliner and you blame the US, I might call you an Iranian lover. Now none of this was either hear nor there, but you became agressive, I was only commenting on the screwed up frigate purchase
Who's blaming the US for that incident? Certainly not this "Canuck". No one to blame for that but the Iranians, but not all Iranians are bad. You can comment as much as you want on our "screwed up" frigate purchase.That's a good way to put it and that's fine. I would never say that the killing of Canadians by an Iranian missile was the fault of the US. Just not so. Most of my close friends I have known in the Navy were all Americans and I hope we will always be. Better people you would ever want to meet. If I came off as being aggressive, I did not mean to. Please forgive. Cheers mate!
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yea, that's not what you did, but lets start on a new legWho's blaming the US for that incident? Certainly not this "Canuck". No one to blame for that but the Iranians, but not all Iranians are bad. You can comment as much as you want on our "screwed up" frigate purchase.That's a good way to put it and that's fine. I would never say that the killing of Canadians by an Iranian missile was the fault of the US. Just not so. Most of my close friends I have known in the Navy were all Americans and I hope we will always be. Better people you would ever want to meet. If I came off as being aggressive, I did not mean to. Please forgive. Cheers mate!
Here is an interesting and informative reply by the Naval Association of Canada to the PBO'S CSC Frigate report on 24 Feb 2021:
Sorry forgot to send you the actual PBO report for 24 Feb 2021. Here it is:
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Not sure if this has been posted before, but a good read.
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It will be at least a decade before Canada sees any of its new frigates
New frigates are being packed with more combat capability than comparable ships of allies
Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Feb 13, 2021An artist's rendering of the British Type 26 frigate. (BAE Systems Inc./Lockheed Martin Canada)
It will be 2031, at the earliest, before the navy sees the first of its new frigates; a setback brought about partly by the fact Canada, Britain and Australia are still feeling their way around how to build the ultra-modern warship.
The outgoing president of Irving Shipbuilding Inc., which is in charge of constructing combat ships for the federal government, said he anticipates steel will be cut on the first of the new generation high-end warships by mid-2024.
"We have been trying to take an honest look at where we are and what it will take to build the ship," said Kevin McCoy who recently announced his retirement from the East Coast shipbuilder.
The current estimate is that it will take up to seven-and-a-half years to build the surface combatant, a timeline being used by Britain's BAE Systems Inc., which is constructing the first of what's known as the Type 26 design.
Both Canada and Australia are building their own variants.
"Early on [in the shipbuilding process] estimates are not very good," said McCoy. "Early estimates are not very good for price; they're not very good for size; they're not not very good for duration," McCoy said. "The British ship has a seven-and-a-half year build cycle. So, we're locked in. We said our build cycle will be seven-and-a-half years as well."
If they can find ways to speed up the process, they will, he said.
If that timeline holds, it means the federal government's marquee shipbuilding strategy will be two decades old by the time it produces the warship it was principally set up to create.
While Irving has been pumping out smaller, less complicated arctic patrol ships and Seaspan, in Vancouver, is building coast guard and science vessels, the strategy conceived by the former Conservative government was driven by the necessity of replacing the navy's current fleet of Halifax-class frigates.
Originally, when the shipbuilding strategy was unveiled, it envisioned Canada receiving the first new frigate in 2017. A lot of water, wishful thinking and even money has gone under the bridge since then.
Building off existing design
The current Liberal government, since taking over in 2015 and embracing the strategy, has been opaque in its public estimates of the build time; suggesting, in some documents, a delivery time in mid-2020s while other more internal records have pegged the first new frigate in the 2027 timeframe.The Department of National Defence, in a statement, acknowledged some of the design and build intricacies are now better understood, and because of that; the first warship will be "approximately 2-3 years later than the previous estimate."
A spokeswoman echoed McCoy's remarks about finding ways to move construction along.
"We continue to look for efficiencies and are actively working with industry to accelerate the project in order to deliver this important platform to the RCN as soon as possible," said National Defence spokesperson Jessica Lamirande.
One of the ways they could do that, she said, would be to construct some, less complex modules of the warship early, the way it has been in the navy's Joint Support Ship project at Seaspan's Vancouver Shipyard.
- $1 billion and counting: Inside Canada's troubled efforts to build new warships
- Industry briefing questions Ottawa's choice of guns, defence systems for new frigates
McCoy, a blunt-talking former U.S. Navy admiral, suggested the expectations going to the surface combatant program were ultimately unworkable because the federal government came in expecting to do a so-called "clean sheet" design; meaning a warship built completely from scratch.
It was the shipyard, he said, which ultimately inched the federal government toward building off an existing design because of the enormous risk and expense of purpose-built ships, a position the Liberals adopted in the spring of 2016.
The selection of the British Type 26 design by the Liberal government has spawned criticism, a court challenge and will figure prominently in upcoming reports by the auditor general and the Parliamentary Budget Officer.
Combat capability packed into ship
The nub of the complaints have been that the frigate is not yet in the water and is still under construction in the United Kingdom.The defence department acknowledged that adapting the British design to Canadian expectations and desires will take a year longer than originally anticipated and is now not scheduled to be completed until late 2023, early 2024.
Canada, McCoy said, can expect to pay no more $2.5 billion to $3 billion, per ship as they are produced, which is, he claimed, about what other nations would pay for a warship of similar capability.
"This is a big ship, lots of capability" he said, indicating that full displacement for the new frigate will likely be about 9,400 tonnes; almost double the 4,700 tonnes of the current Halifax-class.
McCoy said what is not generally understood amid the public concern over scheduling and cost is the fact that the Canadian version of the Type 26 will be expected to do more than its British and Australian cousins.
Where those navies have different warships, performing different functions, such as air defence or anti-submarine warfare, Canada's one class of frigates will be expected to perform both because that is what the government has called for in its requirements.
Dave Perry, a defence analyst and vice president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, has studied the program and said he was surprised at the amount of combat capability that was being packed into the new warship.
"On the one hand, Canada's one [class] of ship will have more combat capability than many of the other classes of ship that our friends and allies sail with, but it also adds an additional level of complexity and challenge getting all of that gear, all of that firepower into one single floating hull and platform," he said.
Hi Khafee! I had seen that report from CBC but don't remember posting it to the forum. Thanks for that. Again, good to have you back! Cheers!!