Post US withdrawl Afghanistan

[Gripen9]

@Counter-Errorist and @Pakhtoon yum Chill bros both of you are our dearest friends and great forum members so need all your inputs .OK before going any further let me tell you i m practically involve with AFG issues to last 25 years and NOT ONLY ONLINE cant say i m expert but chaloo yeh maan lu bhai ko kuch pata hai let me give u 2 examples of how they even fight with eachother.After 2001 when Hamid Karzai was gathering troops of so called invasion he was surrounded by Taliban near some village .They asked Mullah Omar what to do ,he said if he don't fire on you let him go .Hard to understand them?sure.One more regarding Ahmed Shah Masood which mostly portray as villain to whom i consider just one leader not agree with our plans.One of taliban convey trucks missed the track and find themselves near Ahmed Shah Masood militia posts .They were under range but he smile and order his soldiers not to shoot let them go .

All i m saying its very hard for everyone to understand their culture,tribal traditions fighting style but its not wise to judge them on our standard and culture as both are as different as chalk as cheese.so coming back to topic give your valuable inputs as this thing shaping up quickly we will see many changes in next 3 months

I agree 100%. I don't think we need to invade/conquer/annex Afghanistan. That land is not called graveyard of civilizations for nothing.
What needs to be impressed upon the Afghans is that prosperity of their people lies with harmonious living side by side with Pakistan and not by allying with India or Iran or any other foreign power. 20 years of massive American presence and billions of dollars pumped in and they are still in the same medieval time warp. A stable and secure Afghanistan would mean CPEC route can be extended to Central Asian Republics providing a route for them to export and import via Gwader. Afghanistan would benefit from transit fee initially and hopefully improved economic conditions will result in better opportunities for people. There is a saying "rising tide lifts all boats". That needs to be the cornerstone of our carrot and stick policy. Make it clear to them let bygones be bygones start fresh. If they still act villainous or claim areas upto Attock as part of Afghanistan, then Taliban will be the answer. In that case build a buffer in provinces adjacent to Pakistan and make sure no Anti Pak element can take root there. If clean collaboration happens then there is massive economic benefit for all.
We, Pakistanis also needs to learn from our mistakes. As you mentioned Ahmad Shah Masood was really treated shabbily by us. I was in Peshawar 83-87. Too young to grasp the dynamics at that time. But he was viewed with suspicion whenever he would come for support. Our fauji quarter master would not give him anything from the Saudi/Amreeki largesse. It is a miracle how he kept Soviets out of Panjsher. Obviously he remembered that when he came to power. So we also need to give up our in built prejudices and give them a chance with open hearts.
For me key would be economic prosperity. Once you have it -- Realpolitik kicks in
There will be agents who will stand in the way as they profit by a lawless and backward Afghanistan, they will need to be dealt with and anyone who shows AntiPak tendencies.

 

[Zulu]

US Envoy Forges Ahead With Troubled Taliban Peace Deal

Zalmay Khalilzad was accompanied by an economic development team on his weeklong trip that included stops in Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Qatar

www.voanews.com

ISLAMABAD - Washington's envoy to Afghanistan on Saturday emphasized the economic benefits of the peace deal with the Taliban, forging ahead with an agreement that has run into new political obstacles in the U.S. and the region.

Zalmay Khalilzad was wrapping up a weeklong trip that included stops in Uzbekistan, Pakistan and the Gulf state of Qatar, where Taliban negotiators are headquartered.

Accompanying Khalilzad for the first time was an economic development team led by U.S. International Development Finance Corporation Chief Executive Officer Adam Boehler.

Qatar, Pakistan projects

Khalilzad offered no details about the kinds of economic projects being envisioned to jump-start an economy battered by widespread corruption and currently 75% funded by international donations. However, he did suggest joint economic projects involving Qatar and Pakistan, possibly on infrastructure and trade.

The U.S. signed a peace deal with the Taliban in February to end 19 years of war in Afghanistan.

Khalilzad has sought to stress the economic benefits of the peace deal throughout his tour. In a series of tweets early Saturday, the U.S. envoy said he met with the Qatar Investment Authority and the Taliban's chief negotiator, Mullah Abdul Ghani, in the tiny Gulf state's capital of Doha.

"We agreed development plans in support of peace can never start too early," Khalilzad tweeted.

 

[Zulu]

 

[Zulu]

@Gripen9 @Cookie Monster Economic part of deal check his all tweets but the one i quote try to read between lines also first news """Joint venture by PAK-Qatar """" now we are slowly unwrapping the whole deal.Next part what will be for us in it ( no annexing dreams plz )

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

I agree 100%. I don't think we need to invade/conquer/annex Afghanistan. That land is not called graveyard of civilizations for nothing.
What needs to be impressed upon the Afghans is that prosperity of their people lies with harmonious living side by side with Pakistan and not by allying with India or Iran or any other foreign power. 20 years of massive American presence and billions of dollars pumped in and they are still in the same medieval time warp. A stable and secure Afghanistan would mean CPEC route can be extended to Central Asian Republics providing a route for them to export and import via Gwader. Afghanistan would benefit from transit fee initially and hopefully improved economic conditions will result in better opportunities for people. There is a saying "rising tide lifts all boats". That needs to be the cornerstone of our carrot and stick policy. Make it clear to them let bygones be bygones start fresh. If they still act villainous or claim areas upto Attock as part of Afghanistan, then Taliban will be the answer. In that case build a buffer in provinces adjacent to Pakistan and make sure no Anti Pak element can take root there. If clean collaboration happens then there is massive economic benefit for all.
We, Pakistanis also needs to learn from our mistakes. As you mentioned Ahmad Shah Masood was really treated shabbily by us. I was in Peshawar 83-87. Too young to grasp the dynamics at that time. But he was viewed with suspicion whenever he would come for support. Our fauji quarter master would not give him anything from the Saudi/Amreeki largesse. It is a miracle how he kept Soviets out of Panjsher. Obviously he remembered that when he came to power. So we also need to give up our in built prejudices and give them a chance with open hearts.
For me key would be economic prosperity. Once you have it -- Realpolitik kicks in
There will be agents who will stand in the way as they profit by a lawless and backward Afghanistan, they will need to be dealt with and anyone who shows AntiPak tendencies.

Its not the graveyard of anything. The only thing it's a graveyard of is innocent people. The Turks, arabs, persians etc. Have all conquered it for centuries. Again with this mentality.

 

[Safri167]

Why? What is it about Kashmir that it drives everyone gaga? Why is Kashmir so important and the reunification of Afghanistan isn't?

why not hand over kashmir to indians and finish this enemity of 70 years ?
why the headache of going from conventional to atomic ? lets focus on afghanistan then!

Let's ignore the bigger fish to go for a goldfish because it looks pretty. This is a good example of shortsightedness.

its obvious you couldnt comprehend the post. while you can have both fishes even three , but one at a time . this is called longsightedness. anger obliterates many things!

Also you speak as if everyone here is about to lunch their own campaigns. Some going to Iran some going to Kashmir and some going to Mars. This is just a mere discussion that has 0 affects on pakistans choices. The only reason why I'm talking about reunification is to build public sentiments and spread the idea.

we are facing three fronts , india , afganistan and iran its simple what is difficult in it? the point is which one to tackle first and how !

We all know that Pakistan Gov is too cowardly to actually do anything about Kashmir or Afghanistan and that is the reflection of the people in the country. There is a reason why our people were dying like dogs on the streets and people being looted. The population is cursed because it is mentally weak. Consequences of being conquered by the Brits.

we are facing the war on terror for last 20 years . we have bleeded more than any nation yet we are winning it AlhamduLillah! we are being attacked from three sides as well as internally , yet we are standing. poor statement , you are insulting the brave sons of soil who actually laid their life for motherland, we call them Shaheed!

Have you wondered why Pakistani blood is so cheap that not even news outlets care?

our blood is not cheap and we cares for it. the only problem is we have many sellouts ghaddars in our ranks!

 

[Gripen9]

Its not the graveyard of anything. The only thing it's a graveyard of is innocent people. The Turks, arabs, persians etc. Have all conquered it for centuries. Again with this mentality.

Read up....

Why Is Afghanistan the ‘Graveyard of Empires’?

A brief history of the empires that were broken in the Hindu Kush.

thediplomat.com

In 1930, the British had 100,000 white troops in all of India. They pacified the whole sub continent with just those and they commanded the local sellouts. 50,000 of those were deployed in Waziristan. Whenever they ventured on the other side of Durand line, they had their behinds handed to them. Same goes for the Persians, Russians, British, and the Soviets. This is the past 200 years. We can go all the way back to Alexander.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Read up....

Why Is Afghanistan the ‘Graveyard of Empires’?

A brief history of the empires that were broken in the Hindu Kush.

thediplomat.com

In 1930, the British had 100,000 white troops in all of India. They pacified the whole sub continent with just those and they commanded the local sellouts. 50,000 of those were deployed in Waziristan. Whenever they ventured on the other side of Durand line, they had their behinds handed to them. Same goes for the Persians, Russians, British, and the Soviets. This is the past 200 years. We can go all the way back to Alexander.

I suggest you read up on the examples I provided. The brits subdued the whole continent? That's hilarious, tell me have you taken any history classes at higher end institutions? If you have what is the thing they tell you? If you dont know then they tell you "the colonizers used to draw maps and pretend they had all those lands, but in reality it was the opposite and those were merely lines on a map" it was only done to show other European empires.

I'm from Peshawar and I grew up hearing stories of the rebels that fought off the empire all around the valley and they triumphs. Like snipping a commanding officer from toribeeray. This is only 1 example out of hundreds.

I see parallels between the think tanks, professionals etc. On this forum and in the pakistani ruling class. All good students of their previous masters. They carry the fears that where passed down on to them by their masters.

Also the article now, wow would you look at that the mongols controlled it after a battle just like all battles. For the death of his nephew, so what? Chinghez khan was killed in china, that must mean china is the most powerful and unconquerable people on earth...wrong. china was conquered by countless nations, including areas that were conquered by japanese pirates...pirates!.

Do you need to argue any further or do you understand the point I make? If you dont then I see this whole discussion fruitless for you would fall into the category that I highlighted earlier in my arguments.

 

[Scorpion]

The vaccum needs to be filled before it is too late. Iraq is an example.

 

[Counter-Errorist]

US Envoy Forges Ahead With Troubled Taliban Peace Deal

Zalmay Khalilzad was accompanied by an economic development team on his weeklong trip that included stops in Uzbekistan, Pakistan and Qatar

www.voanews.com

ISLAMABAD - Washington's envoy to Afghanistan on Saturday emphasized the economic benefits of the peace deal with the Taliban, forging ahead with an agreement that has run into new political obstacles in the U.S. and the region.

Zalmay Khalilzad was wrapping up a weeklong trip that included stops in Uzbekistan, Pakistan and the Gulf state of Qatar, where Taliban negotiators are headquartered.

Accompanying Khalilzad for the first time was an economic development team led by U.S. International Development Finance Corporation Chief Executive Officer Adam Boehler.

Qatar, Pakistan projects

Khalilzad offered no details about the kinds of economic projects being envisioned to jump-start an economy battered by widespread corruption and currently 75% funded by international donations. However, he did suggest joint economic projects involving Qatar and Pakistan, possibly on infrastructure and trade.

The U.S. signed a peace deal with the Taliban in February to end 19 years of war in Afghanistan.

Khalilzad has sought to stress the economic benefits of the peace deal throughout his tour. In a series of tweets early Saturday, the U.S. envoy said he met with the Qatar Investment Authority and the Taliban's chief negotiator, Mullah Abdul Ghani, in the tiny Gulf state's capital of Doha.

"We agreed development plans in support of peace can never start too early," Khalilzad tweeted.

Pakistan's involvement can only mean access to Gwadar. Pretty sure India was pitching Chahbahar as the alternative. Guess we won that fight too.
China will get 90% income from Gwadar, we will make money taxing transit through Pakistan and all the support infrastructure in-between. So China will be content with this too. I'm interested in seeing what the US sees beyond Afghanistan.

Also interesting is that the US is working with Qatar instead of GCC. Is that a shift in policy?

 

[Armchair]

@Waiting

After aligning with China and clear message to US, there is not a single bolt for us from America and allies... you will see things within days... it is not public yet.... so no. F-16 after last visit by zalmay....

I tend to agree with you and stated this in multiple places, but I cannot understand the multiple sources saying something is up with F-16s and Pakistan. Trump is a loose cannon, which may have its benefits.

Now till November, Trump needs Pakistan to keep things smooth. Otherwise he will lose the very close election. Trump's trump card is a full withdrawal by November. IK isn't Mushy who, as Colin Powell noted, gave the goras everything without making any demands. IK knows how to make demands, after all, he used to ball bouncers at batsmen.

@Khafee brings another angle to light - the US will make a last attempt to stop Pakistan becoming essentially a province of China from the US perspective.

 

[Safri167]

@Waiting



I tend to agree with you and stated this in multiple places, but I cannot understand the multiple sources saying something is up with F-16s and Pakistan. Trump is a loose cannon, which may have its benefits.

Now till November, Trump needs Pakistan to keep things smooth. Otherwise he will lose the very close election. Trump's trump card is a full withdrawal by November. IK isn't Mushy who, as Colin Powell noted, gave the goras everything without making any demands. IK knows how to make demands, after all, he used to ball bouncers at batsmen.

@Khafee brings another angle to light - the US will make a last attempt to stop Pakistan becoming essentially a province of China from the US perspective.

But we know one thing and you will agree with it sir, jets can be blocked / sanctioned at any moment until they land.

 

[Waiting]

@Waiting



I tend to agree with you and stated this in multiple places, but I cannot understand the multiple sources saying something is up with F-16s and Pakistan. Trump is a loose cannon, which may have its benefits.

Now till November, Trump needs Pakistan to keep things smooth. Otherwise he will lose the very close election. Trump's trump card is a full withdrawal by November. IK isn't Mushy who, as Colin Powell noted, gave the goras everything without making any demands. IK knows how to make demands, after all, he used to ball bouncers at batsmen.

@Khafee brings another angle to light - the US will make a last attempt to stop Pakistan becoming essentially a province of China from the US perspective.

That last attempt failed few days back... conveyed to them...

 

[Armchair]

That last attempt failed few days back... conveyed to them...

Sorry didn't understand what you said... could you explain?

Edit: okay got it - what you were saying about the Zalmay visit.

 

[Zulu]

so true With our history with US everything is possible jab tak apny hath naa aa jain cautious hi rehna acha hai

But we know one thing and you will agree with it sir, jets can be blocked / sanctioned at any moment until they land.