China Sells J-10 Fourth Generation Fighters to Pakistan | Page 14 | World Defense

China Sells J-10 Fourth Generation Fighters to Pakistan

Gripen9

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I don't if @Khafee is right or not. But J-10 C is the idea replacement for MIRAGES but if we want to go for it than for GOD sake go big not two or three squadrons. Either order them like you bought MIRAGES when they were first inducted or look for something else. Although in China rumours of J-10 D popping up soon have also started.

In conclusion what @Khafee and others are saying on this forum is that 3 squadrons of J 15 will come for Naval Role and J 10 C will be brought as replacement for MIRAGES. Number of J 10 C not known.

Am I right in this conclusion ???
If you recall, we inducted the initial inventory of Mirages over a period of 10 years 68-78. With planes being ordered in batches of around 24 every 2-3 years. Last brand new Mirages from France were 5VPA3 (Agave/Exocet) inducted 76-78. We then acquired 50+ M3 from Australia in early 90s and some more from france (2nd hand) and Lebanon/Libya as late as early 2000s. So our inventory of 180+ mirages was not built up over night. Took a long while.

We may see something similar.
Acquisition of 36 J10c to replace the oldest non ROSE Mirages with follow up orders later down the road. Only thing that may impact is that we are at cross roads of a generational leap in aircraft design. So we may not see 150 J10s in PAF squadrons but the most updated ROSE Mirages soldiering on to be replaced by a 5th gen platform that may be the result of project Azm.

Keep in mind USAF is re-engining the venerable B52. They may be flying into 2050s (over hundred years for some airframes). Similarly when we overhaul them at Kamra, the whole airframes is checked for metal fatigue and parts replaced. We have been fabricating a lot of those airframe parts in house.
 

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Where it is shared ?
Ok got, it seems sensible except air intake totally reallocation, which change airframe entirely, J10 semi seatlh version already in news from last year with name of J10D, this concept was adopted from F15 SE (silent eagle).
Possibly its will inherit few stealth feature, engine improvements already on the able to reduce in flyaway cast and range ( Pakistan also have these 2 concerns in past high flyaway cost limited range)
 

Armchair

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Something interesting is being mentioned about J10's in Chinese section @Armchair sir, @Scorpio sir, @Gripen9 sir.
Some NG version of j10.

I am pretty sure there is an evolution of the J-10 - a "stealthy" J-10. No idea to what extent and in what configuration, but its a logical evolution for the J-10 success story.

Hui Tong also has an image of a "stealthy JF-17" version. Its got F-22 style glass with sawtooth.

One thing is for sure - a thrust vectored J-10 is superior to the Rafale in high altitude and high speed kinematics - meaning they will have a slight advantage in BVR combat against the same.
 

Counter-Errorist

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I am pretty sure there is an evolution of the J-10 - a "stealthy" J-10. No idea to what extent and in what configuration, but its a logical evolution for the J-10 success story.

Hui Tong also has an image of a "stealthy JF-17" version. Its got F-22 style glass with sawtooth.

One thing is for sure - a thrust vectored J-10 is superior to the Rafale in high altitude and high speed kinematics - meaning they will have a slight advantage in BVR combat against the same.
Can you explain how TVC helps in BVR combat?
 

Armchair

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Can you explain how TVC helps in BVR combat?

When you are flying at high altitude and high speed (the way to make your BVR go the farthest and be the deadliest, with a large NEZ - no escape zone), you can use thrust vectoring for greater maneuverability at altitude.

This is because your wings are less and less effective as the density of air decreases. At 40K - 50K feet, you have a small fraction of the density at sea level. At this altitude, your wings are considerably less effective.

Small winged aircraft like F-35, JF-17, even F-16 are at a serious disadvantage against aircraft like the Mirage 2000, Rafale, Eurofighter.

Mirage 2000 has weak engines, so does have an advantage but cannot fully utilize that aerodynamic advantage.

The British built the Eurofighter to fight exactly this battle, while the Rafale is a compromise, so less effective. The British use specially designed engines that are optimal for high altitude high speed combat at altitude, meaning in a real world conflict, they will have the capability to shoot the furthest AAMs and have the best survivability against enemy AAMs.

The Eurofighter however doesn't have something that the J-10 is introducing - thrust vectoring. At altitude, when your wings are not as efficient and your aircraft is being flown like a battleship with a very long radius of turn, thrust vectoring helps not only with ITR (instantaneous turn rate) but STR.

Added to the delta wings already better turn rate at altitude, the thrust vectoring significantly augments it.

Think of it this way - modern SR-AAMs use thrust vectoring for maneuverability. Even though AAMs have tiny wings, they can get excellent maneuverability and ability to turn on a dime. This is because of those thrust vectoring mechanisms they have.

There are many other benefits of thrust vectoring but it is yet to be seen if anyone other than the F-22 meaningfully field, operationally this capability.

Some of these other benefits include:

1. Ability to minimise use of flaps, aelorons, flaperons, stabilizers, thus decreasing drag and decreasing combat RCS
2. Increasing aerodynamic efficiency of flight at altitude.
3. Increasing ability to maintain stable, controlled flight at altitude.
4. Increasing fuel efficiency of cruise at various parameters due to better aerodynamic profile now available due to thrust vectoring

.... other stuff you can ask an aerodynamics expert about.

(And I have not even touched upon pre merge and post merge WVR advantage, mainly sticking to BVR at high altitude and high speed).
 

Counter-Errorist

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When you are flying at high altitude and high speed (the way to make your BVR go the farthest and be the deadliest, with a large NEZ - no escape zone), you can use thrust vectoring for greater maneuverability at altitude.

This is because your wings are less and less effective as the density of air decreases. At 40K - 50K feet, you have a small fraction of the density at sea level. At this altitude, your wings are considerably less effective.

Small winged aircraft like F-35, JF-17, even F-16 are at a serious disadvantage against aircraft like the Mirage 2000, Rafale, Eurofighter.

Mirage 2000 has weak engines, so does have an advantage but cannot fully utilize that aerodynamic advantage.

The British built the Eurofighter to fight exactly this battle, while the Rafale is a compromise, so less effective. The British use specially designed engines that are optimal for high altitude high speed combat at altitude, meaning in a real world conflict, they will have the capability to shoot the furthest AAMs and have the best survivability against enemy AAMs.

The Eurofighter however doesn't have something that the J-10 is introducing - thrust vectoring. At altitude, when your wings are not as efficient and your aircraft is being flown like a battleship with a very long radius of turn, thrust vectoring helps not only with ITR (instantaneous turn rate) but STR.

Added to the delta wings already better turn rate at altitude, the thrust vectoring significantly augments it.

Think of it this way - modern SR-AAMs use thrust vectoring for maneuverability. Even though AAMs have tiny wings, they can get excellent maneuverability and ability to turn on a dime. This is because of those thrust vectoring mechanisms they have.

There are many other benefits of thrust vectoring but it is yet to be seen if anyone other than the F-22 meaningfully field, operationally this capability.

Some of these other benefits include:

1. Ability to minimise use of flaps, aelorons, flaperons, stabilizers, thus decreasing drag and decreasing combat RCS
2. Increasing aerodynamic efficiency of flight at altitude.
3. Increasing ability to maintain stable, controlled flight at altitude.
4. Increasing fuel efficiency of cruise at various parameters due to better aerodynamic profile now available due to thrust vectoring

.... other stuff you can ask an aerodynamics expert about.

(And I have not even touched upon pre merge and post merge WVR advantage, mainly sticking to BVR at high altitude and high speed).
TVC helps outmaneuver your opponent crafts, you cannot possible outmaneuver a missile. And attempting to do so drastically degrades your energy to a point where you become a sitting duck. Happy to be corrected.
 

Armchair

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TVC helps outmaneuver your opponent crafts, you cannot possible outmaneuver a missile. And attempting to do so drastically degrades your energy to a point where you become a sitting duck. Happy to be corrected.

I think you didn't understand what I wrote or don't understand the subject. Please do reread what I wrote and try to connect the dots.
 

Gripen9

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TVC helps outmaneuver your opponent crafts, you cannot possible outmaneuver a missile. And attempting to do so drastically degrades your energy to a point where you become a sitting duck. Happy to be corrected.
Exactly. TVC results is massive amounts of energy bleed.
 

Counter-Errorist

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I think you didn't understand what I wrote or don't understand the subject. Please do reread what I wrote and try to connect the dots.
My mistake. For some reason, only the first 2 paras had showed up initially.

While I understand how thrust vectoring would help stabilize and maneuver flight at higher altitudes, I don't see how it would boost aircraft speed, which is what would be required to send your AAM further.
 

TomCat

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I am pretty sure there is an evolution of the J-10 - a "stealthy" J-10. No idea to what extent and in what configuration, but its a logical evolution for the J-10 success story.

Hui Tong also has an image of a "stealthy JF-17" version. Its got F-22 style glass with sawtooth.

One thing is for sure - a thrust vectored J-10 is superior to the Rafale in high altitude and high speed kinematics - meaning they will have a slight advantage in BVR combat against the same.
Can you share the Image of Thunder ?
 

Kabotar

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I am pretty sure there is an evolution of the J-10 - a "stealthy" J-10. No idea to what extent and in what configuration, but its a logical evolution for the J-10 success story.

Hui Tong also has an image of a "stealthy JF-17" version. Its got F-22 style glass with sawtooth.

One thing is for sure - a thrust vectored J-10 is superior to the Rafale in high altitude and high speed kinematics - meaning they will have a slight advantage in BVR combat against the same.
Can you post those images here?
 
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