Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive!

[Khafee]

IMO there are a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' with the Sino-Flankers. The path of least resistance is the J-10CE, and of note, the FC-20 was the originally selected deep-strike/attack fighter of the PAF under AFFDP-2015. The J-10CE will bring us immediate (or easier) integration with one of China's supersonic anti-ship missiles, the SD-10 and whatever long-range AAM they release for export, and other stuff.

My conv's with PAF give me the impression that J-10 does not bring something drastically different than the JF-17. On the other hand, Chinese twins are maintenance intensive.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that the Su-35 is a bargaining chip, for the EF.

 

[PewPew]

My conv's with PAF give me the impression that J-10 does not bring something drastically different than the JF-17. On the other hand, Chinese twins are maintenance intensive.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that the Su-35 is a bargaining chip, for the EF.

tbh I've heard conflicting info.

There's a camp of PAF people (who were never involved with the FC-20, BTW) who'll say it doesn't bring much more than the JF-17. OTOH there's an entirely different group (which was involved with the project) which said it was AHQ's choice of attack fighter. And no amount of saying the J-10CE "is not that much better than JF-17" is going to change the difference in payload, range, etc.

When Zardari/PPP/IMF cleared our treasury and forced the FC-20 project to die, we all tried saving face by saying the J-10B/CE wasn't much different from the JF-17. That's not an entirely accurate statement.

 

[Khafee]

tbh I've heard conflicting info.

There's a camp of PAF people (who were never involved with the FC-20, BTW) who'll say it doesn't bring much more than the JF-17. OTOH there's an entirely different group (which was involved with the project) which said it was AHQ's choice of attack fighter. And no amount of saying the J-10CE "is not that much better than JF-17" is going to change the difference in payload, range, etc.

When Zardari/PPP/IMF cleared our treasury and forced the FC-20 project to die, we all tried saving face by the J-10B/CE wasn't much different from the JF-17. That's not an entirely accurate statement.

Very valid points.

I just feel, given the evolving challenges, PAF needs a heavy twin ASAP.

 

[Mingle]

Very valid points.

I just feel, given the evolving challenges, PAF needs a heavy twin ASAP.

So SU35 would be only option explored by PAF? Or PAF has more option on table and pick one according to price and range.
EF brings its own benefits tech weapons range plus give PAF option for Rolls Royce engine for Thunder as well. Money wise it's bit expensive but it allowed to integrate French Exocit missile along Chinese ASM or Raad to integrate allowed by EU?
European Arms export is very weak and good chances we can have deal with them along used and new ones let's see Su 35 my heart don't budge on it since Feb 27 it's not good dog fighter against small size agile planes only good in Syria where no challenge.

 

[PewPew]

So SU35 would be only option explored by PAF? Or PAF has more option on table and pick one according to price and range.
EF brings its own benefits tech weapons range plus give PAF option for Rolls Royce engine for Thunder as well. Money wise it's bit expensive but it allowed to integrate French Exocit missile along Chinese ASM or Raad to integrate allowed by EU?
European Arms export is very weak and good chances we can have deal with them along used and new ones let's see Su 35 my heart don't budge on it since Feb 27 it's not good dog fighter against small size agile planes only good in Syria where no challenge.

The Typhoon T3 has trade-offs.

Yes, for the price you can probably get more Su-35s up front, but the Typhoon T3 is probably cheaper to maintain over the long-term and it can interoperate with the F-16s and Erieye AEW&C. In practical terms, we can look at them as one in the same in terms of assets, and in that case, we're talking about 100+ really, really good fighters networked to one another via Link-16.

As for weapons. The main motive of any T3 purchase would be the Meteor BVRAAM. Besides that, I think the Consortium will be OK if we integrate at least the Turkish Atmaca AShM and SOM ALCM. Chinese missiles will be a challenge for obvious reasons. Ra'ad is doable.

One key aspect is that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, and Kuwait have or will have Typhoon fleets. So, in the long-run, there's always that chance of asking for a few here and there to spruce up our own fleet. If anything, you know you have nearby sources for spare parts.

If there's really $9 billion on-hand for off-the-shelf fighters, then one scenario could be to split it between 18 Typhoon T3s, 36 Block-72s, and F-16V-class upgrade kits for the current F-16s. Sure, it's just a fleet of 130 fighters, but they would be so tightly integrated, it's not even funny. Plus, as long as those two platforms remain in production (Typhoon and F-16), you can add small batch orders to spruce up both fleets.

 

[Mingle]

The Typhoon T3 has trade-offs.

Yes, for the price you can probably get more Su-35s up front, but the Typhoon T3 is probably cheaper to maintain over the long-term and it can interoperate with the F-16s and Erieye AEW&C. In practical terms, we can look at them as one in the same in terms of assets, and in that case, we're talking about 100+ really, really good fighters networked to one another via Link-16.

As for weapons. The main motive of any T3 purchase would be the Meteor BVRAAM. Besides that, I think the Consortium will be OK if we integrate at least the Turkish Atmaca AShM and SOM ALCM. Chinese missiles will be a challenge for obvious reasons. Ra'ad is doable.

One key aspect is that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, and Kuwait have or will have Typhoon fleets. So, in the long-run, there's always that chance of asking for a few here and there to spruce up our own fleet. If anything, you know you have nearby sources for spare parts.

If there's really $9 billion on-hand for off-the-shelf fighters, then one scenario could be to split it between 18 Typhoon T3s, 36 Block-72s, and F-16V-class upgrade kits for the current F-16s. Sure, it's just a fleet of 130 fighters, but they would be so tightly integrated, it's not even funny. Plus, as long as those two platforms remain in production (Typhoon and F-16), you can add small batch orders to spruce up both fleets.

That's what I mean you can keep adding up in small numbers. EF is fantastic palne give PAF what they want a high tech punch along deep strike.

 

[AliYusuf]

As the first tranche of the write-up on Su-35S, I first wanted it to be differentiated from & compared with the Su-30MKI ... of which, we have heard loads of near mythical tales of capabilities & potential from Indian members of different online discussion forums for over the last decade or so.

 

[AliYusuf]

Rest of the write up to follow in a few days.

 

[Mastankhan]

IMO there are a lot of 'ifs' and 'buts' with the Sino-Flankers. The path of least resistance is the J-10CE, and of note, the FC-20 was the originally selected deep-strike/attack fighter of the PAF under AFFDP-2015. The J-10CE will bring us immediate (or easier) integration with one of China's supersonic anti-ship missiles, the SD-10 and whatever long-range AAM they release for export, and other stuff.

Any gap in range and payload by not going the Flanker route, we can make up by buying more J-10CEs and making them available across more environments, more sorties, higher availability rates, etc.

Hi,

In his most recent interview with Malick---Paf veteran Sajad Haider states that Paf has see first shoot first capability.

In that case if the superiority is there then the J10CE is the best capable aircraft for Pakistan---.

It would be the easiest aircraft to integrate and operate---. Inside---the glass cockpit is basically the same as the JF 17---it is a single engine aircraft---and weapon integration would be not an issue at all---.

There is no restriction on the aircraft other than the russians wanting to sell us the SU35 rather than the engine for the J10CE---.

Let us also consider what else could be in the package---. It may simply not be just the SU35's---maybe a lot more---.

 

[Mastankhan]

Hi,

A very interesting interview by 2 ex Paf fighter jocks---.

 

[Mastankhan]

My conv's with PAF give me the impression that J-10 does not bring something drastically different than the JF-17. On the other hand, Chinese twins are maintenance intensive.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that the Su-35 is a bargaining chip, for the EF.

Hi,

The numbers is the biggest problem that the Paf has---. Those fools cannot comprehend that---.

The J10's bring the numbers immediate and on a fastrak---.

Since 2014 or was it 2013 that the chinese offered us the J10 B / C's---. If we had taken that offer---we would have had a 100 of them by now---meaning close to 300---4th gen aircraft---.

Paf is acting extremely stupid---and it has its followers as well---. And the main problem with pakistani civilian govt is that no one understands the utility and power positioning of a higher number of fighter aircraft---.

Paf is still bullsh-tting about better pilots---okay---we agree they have better pilots---but someone needs to pull their heads out of their ar-ses as well---.

With better pilots---you need a higher number of air crafts to keep psychos like Modi in check---.

If Paf cannot understand that a 100 more aircraft just like the JF17 equals to the approximate strength of 6-7 army divisions---there is a problem with their minds---.

If Napoleone had 6 extra divisions of army available at waterloo on the run---he would have decimated his enemies permanently---.

The J10 have the same instrumentation and same weapons---very easy and quick to integrate---.

Now---for Paf reasoning---we will see about 100000 muslim women and girls RAPED in indian occupied kashmir---close to 1/2 a million men killed---for what---because the J10 brings nothing new to the table---.

When you talk to those PAF professionals the next time---tell them so and tell therm Mastankhan said that---.

Modi would not have been thiking of taking Kashmir---or sending that submarine to our waters---.

 

[Mastankhan]

So SU35 would be only option explored by PAF? Or PAF has more option on table and pick one according to price and range.
EF brings its own benefits tech weapons range plus give PAF option for Rolls Royce engine for Thunder as well. Money wise it's bit expensive but it allowed to integrate French Exocit missile along Chinese ASM or Raad to integrate allowed by EU?
European Arms export is very weak and good chances we can have deal with them along used and new ones let's see Su 35 my heart don't budge on it since Feb 27 it's not good dog fighter against small size agile planes only good in Syria where no challenge.

Hi,

If we get the SU35---it won't be the frontine fighter interceptor---. The pointman would be the F16's and the JF17's---.

The SU35 would be like the F15---big brother watching over the younger brothers---.

Most of the combat would be done by the JF17's---F16's---and the Mirages 3/5's---.

I personally would want to see a 100 J10CE's and about 50 of the JH7A's11---.

Mumbai is the achilles heal of india---. Strike mumbai and you will have a financial metldown of india---.

 

[Mastankhan]

Hi,

We are basing our strength against the Rafale to our getting the JF-17 BLK3's with aesa----which is about a year away on the minimum---.

Now if we had procured the J10 CE---that was available to us I believe in 2013---what do you guys think we would have had in 2013-2014---???

A JF-17 BLK 3 with aesa---yessir---because the J10 is the same as a JF17---.

@Khafee ----do you understand what I just stated---.

We could have had a JF-17 BLK 3 & that also with AESA capability aircraft in around 2014---.

Can you imagine how would we be projecting the air power by now---.

 

[AliYusuf]

Hi,

We are basing our strength against the Rafale to our getting the JF-17 BLK3's with aesa----which is about a year away on the minimum---.

Now if we had procured the J10 CE---that was available to us I believe in 2013---what do you guys think we would have had in 2013-2014---???

A JF-17 BLK 3 with aesa---yessir---because the J10 is the same as a JF17---.

@Khafee ----do you understand what I just stated---.

We could have had a JF-17 BLK 3 & that also with AESA capability aircraft in around 2014---.

Can you imagine how would we be projecting the air power by now---.

Spot on, as always, @Mastankhan Sahib.

 

[Khafee]

The Typhoon T3 has trade-offs.

Yes, for the price you can probably get more Su-35s up front, but the Typhoon T3 is probably cheaper to maintain over the long-term and it can interoperate with the F-16s and Erieye AEW&C. In practical terms, we can look at them as one in the same in terms of assets, and in that case, we're talking about 100+ really, really good fighters networked to one another via Link-16.

As for weapons. The main motive of any T3 purchase would be the Meteor BVRAAM. Besides that, I think the Consortium will be OK if we integrate at least the Turkish Atmaca AShM and SOM ALCM. Chinese missiles will be a challenge for obvious reasons. Ra'ad is doable.

One key aspect is that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, and Kuwait have or will have Typhoon fleets. So, in the long-run, there's always that chance of asking for a few here and there to spruce up our own fleet. If anything, you know you have nearby sources for spare parts.

If there's really $9 billion on-hand for off-the-shelf fighters, then one scenario could be to split it between 18 Typhoon T3s, 36 Block-72s, and F-16V-class upgrade kits for the current F-16s. Sure, it's just a fleet of 130 fighters, but they would be so tightly integrated, it's not even funny. Plus, as long as those two platforms remain in production (Typhoon and F-16), you can add small batch orders to spruce up both fleets.

Agree on all except the last para. US will not allow anyone to use their funds to buy a foreign platform.