China Sells J-10 Fourth Generation Fighters to Pakistan | Page 57 | World Defense

China Sells J-10 Fourth Generation Fighters to Pakistan

AliYusuf

THINK TANK: ANALYST
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
460
Reactions
1,641 69 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Sir @Khafee has told in a post earlier today about the thrust comparison, where Sir told AL 31F has better thrust than the chinese WS-10
That my brother would be the tweaked thrust that he was referring to. Otherwise, the standard thrust is what I have stated in my post. You can google it.
 

Cookie Monster

THINK TANK
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
438
Reactions
1,565 76 0
Country
USA
Location
USA
That's the news of the new year. So Pakistan wisely choose the mature and more reliable Russian engine instead of Chinese engine.
Russian engine have longer life span than the Chinese engine, almost double life span than the chinese.
My fellow readers are questioning about the WS-10B engine.
I think Pakistan has choose for the russian engine because of reliability , better thrust and longer life span. Chinese had switch over to their own engine because they don't want to continue depending on russian engines, even chinese engines are still not parallel to the russian engines.
Chinese have large set-up for engine manufacturing. So Chinese don't worry about the life span of the WS-10. When they face problem in any WS-10 engine, they remove the old one and insert the new one. Its just like plug and play for them. But Pakistan can't enjoy this luxury, PAF have very limited resources so they can only go for a reliable engine.
So they choose AL 31F, as brother @AliYusuf said earlier with ToT Pakistan will also buy the russian leverage and future assistance in AZM NGF. I hope that will work fine for us in long term. Thanks
I'm not an insider nor am I privy to any classified information...
...but as far as I've been able to gather from public sources...China has poured in tons of money in engine technology and at the pace at which they have progressed...currently they are roughly on par with Russians overall IMO...

Still there's pros and cons of going with Russian engine option.

Pros...
- Getting Russian engines for JF17, J10, J15, JH7(that's hundreds of aircrafts)...keeps them happy and unlikely to raise objections about Pak getting J15(Chinese flanker).
- The ToT agreement
- Involvement in Azm NGF
- Further opening up Pak's access to Russian stuff
- Diversification for Pak(rather than being too reliant on just a couple of countries)...and it also signals less pull of India on the Russians(meaning Russian have taken note of India going in US camp).

Cons...
- Slightly less commonality and interoperability between PAF/PLAAF.
- Harder to switch to newer/better Chinese engines(as it is my opinion that China will overtake the Russians in engine tech in the next few decades) if Pak operates hundreds of Russian engines.
- Russia still being somewhat unpredictable...may still choose to sanction Pakistan(or be uncooperative) in case of war between India/Pak...meaning getting new engines or spares may be harder or impossible during war.
 

Scorpio

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
1,656
Reactions
3,007 66 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I'm not an insider nor am I privy to any classified information...
...but as far as I've been able to gather from public sources...China has poured in tons of money in engine technology and at the pace at which they have progressed...currently they are roughly on par with Russians overall IMO...

Still there's pros and cons of going with Russian engine option.

Pros...
- Getting Russian engines for JF17, J10, J15, JH7(that's hundreds of aircrafts)...keeps them happy and unlikely to raise objections about Pak getting J15(Chinese flanker).
- The ToT agreement
- Involvement in Azm NGF
- Further opening up Pak's access to Russian stuff
- Diversification for Pak(rather than being too reliant on just a couple of countries)...and it also signals less pull of India on the Russians(meaning Russian have taken note of India going in US camp).

Cons...
- Slightly less commonality and interoperability between PAF/PLAAF.
- Harder to switch to newer/better Chinese engines(as it is my opinion that China will overtake the Russians in engine tech in the next few decades) if Pak operates hundreds of Russian engines.
- Russia still being somewhat unpredictable...may still choose to sanction Pakistan(or be uncooperative) in case of war between India/Pak...meaning getting new engines or spares may be harder or impossible during war.
These can be fitted with Chinese engine in coming future if required
 

MominKhan

MEMBER
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
99
Reactions
208 15 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
What we may be getting is the “MA” version of AL-31F—an updated version, of equivalent thrust and perhaps better reliability.

I get the feeling that Chinese sometimes get ahead of themselves in making claims about technology. They are coming up with good engines, but there may still be teething problems.
 
Last edited:

Mastankhan

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
503
Reactions
2,113 70 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
Hi,

Well---the AL31 in the J10 is very interesting news.

So---what's up next---. A russian pakistani next gen stealth aircraft---?

Or maybe the J20 in the future---?
 

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
12,354
Reactions
24,508 1,297 0
I'm not an insider nor am I privy to any classified information...


Cons...
- Slightly less commonality and interoperability between PAF/PLAAF.
- Harder to switch to newer/better Chinese engines(as it is my opinion that China will overtake the Russians in engine tech in the next few decades) if Pak operates hundreds of Russian engines.
- Russia still being somewhat unpredictable...may still choose to sanction Pakistan(or be uncooperative) in case of war between India/Pak...meaning getting new engines or spares may be harder or impossible during war.
Insider or not, excellent points!

Let me try and address your concerns:

1) Commonality between PAF & PLAAF - PLAAF has been operating and maintaining Russian engines, in particular this one, so parts availbality, knowledge, AND the ability to build certain parts from scratch does exist.

2) Switching to Chinese engines - Given the wear and tear, maintenance issues, OR when newer engine tech becomes available, specifically at MLU point, as well as for newer sqdns / platforms it would not be an issue.

3) Ivan's Unpredictability - Or rather disagreement on certain issues. The way around this, is to stock parts in advance, and what I mentioned in point #1 earlier. You only get into a bind, when you dont have options.
 

War Historian

THINK TANK
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
325
Reactions
771 36 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Insider or not, excellent points!

Let me try and address your concerns:

1) Commonality between PAF & PLAAF - PLAAF has been operating and maintaining Russian engines, in particular this one, so parts availbality, knowledge, AND the ability to build certain parts from scratch does exist.

2) Switching to Chinese engines - Given the wear and tear, maintenance issues, OR when newer engine tech becomes available, specifically at MLU point, as well as for newer sqdns / platforms it would not be an issue.

3) Ivan's Unpredictability - Or rather disagreement on certain issues. The way around this, is to stock parts in advance, and what I mentioned in point #1 earlier. You only get into a bind, when you dont have options.
Excellent , nothing can be better than this detail answer for all of us. May Allah shower His blessings upon you. Ameen
 

Farhan Ullah

BANNED
Joined
Jan 10, 2022
Messages
22
Reactions
20 0 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
3) Ivan's Unpredictability - Or rather disagreement on certain issues. The way around this, is to stock parts in advance, and what I mentioned in point #1 earlier. You only get into a bind, when you dont have options.
For this, the RD-93 method might be used "if" Saturns are used instead of Chinese equivalents.
China acts as a middleman between Russia and Pakistan, and India can't cry to Russia that why they gave us engines and spareparts.

(my opinion is it would be chinese engine for the J-10, as they are much better in maintenance, logistics etc etc. PAF has almost never done inductions for diplomacy, it is always on merit, so we will know which one's the better when IA we see them on 23rd March)
 

Mastankhan

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
503
Reactions
2,113 70 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
@messiach ma'am from the other forum has revealed that the J-10C's are coming with the Russian AL31 engines with ToT.

My query to all and sundry, and especially @Khafee Sb, why is it that Pakistan is pursuing an engine with lesser thrust and one which has a history of accidents ... compared to the WS-10B ... i.e. an engine that has a higher thrust and is more stable than the Russian one ... by a significant margin?

Hi,

I am surprised that you did not know it---PAF had chosen a lower thrust engine for its F16's as well decades ago.
 

AliYusuf

THINK TANK: ANALYST
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
460
Reactions
1,641 69 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Hi,

I am surprised that you did not know it---PAF had chosen a lower thrust engine for its F16's as well decades ago.
If memory serves me right, at the time of the purchase of the F-16C/D back in early 2005, the P/W F-100 IPE engines were selected because the GE F-110 IPE for the Block-50+ were available only after fulfilling orders for the US and other allies, at a much later date and also because the Israelis were happy with their F-16I Sufa P/W F-100 IPE engines ... also the GE engines required the Big-Mouth Inlet ... which increased frontal RCS.

But during the purchase of the F-16A/B in the early 80s ... the Fighting Falcons came equipped only with the P/W F-100s. No GE alternatives were available back then.
 

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
12,354
Reactions
24,508 1,297 0
If memory serves me right, at the time of the purchase of the F-16C/D back in early 2005, the P/W F-100 IPE engines were selected because the GE F-110 IPE for the Block-50+ were available only after fulfilling orders for the US and other allies, at a much later date and also because the Israelis were happy with their F-16I Sufa P/W F-100 IPE engines ... also the GE engines required the Big-Mouth Inlet ... which increased frontal RCS.

But during the purchase of the F-16A/B in the early 80s ... the Fighting Falcons came equipped only with the P/W F-100s. No GE alternatives were available back then.
Right by all accounts, BUT, they did have the option for going for the GE-132, which they declined.
 

AliYusuf

THINK TANK: ANALYST
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
460
Reactions
1,641 69 0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Right by all accounts, BUT, they did have the option for going for the GE-132, which they declined.
Ok, I wasn't aware that the US had offered the F110-GE-132 to Pakistan. I had assumed they were off the table just like the AIM-120C7.
 

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
12,354
Reactions
24,508 1,297 0
Ok, I wasn't aware that the US had offered the F110-GE-132 to Pakistan. I had assumed they were off the table just like the AIM-120C7.
It was fairly a new engine, maybe that is why they ignored it.
 
Top